Welcome And The Power Of Asking

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Welcome back to another episode of the World Through Zaniz podcast. I'm Jung Ansonim here with I'm Dr. Ruben Lambert. And we are back.

Earning The Right To Ask

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Have any questions? I do. Actually, on the way over here, I was reflecting and contemplating, and I was thinking about the role of questions in the practice of Zen. Because some traditions don't really, let's say, promote or welcome questions. And I feel like the very foundation of Zen Buddhism is to ask questions. And even if we look at the sutras, the way that each sutra is designed is where somebody asked the historical Buddha, Sokamuni Buddha, a question, and that's how the sutra unfolds. Right. And there's a lot of lore surrounding this notion of asking a question to a Zen monk, and my mind reflected on a commercial from I believe the 80s or 90s, where I think it was a Gatorade commercial where two people climbed this large mountain. So there's the arduous task because one has to first fight through hardship and persevere and be diligent, and then you arrive. And then you arrive, and then there's a peaceful Zed monk sitting there, and then you get one question. And the commercial is a Gatorade commercial. I don't remember exactly how it went at that point, but I think they asked something about what is the best drink to quench your thirst. Yeah, so they worked really hard just to ask a question. And then one more thing, I I had read about Songcho Kunsenim, he was the patriarch of Chogy order. And in the article, they talked about news reporters that would come to him, and again, they would ask a question. And there was no mountain, but he gave them a mountain. He said before they can ask a question, they had to do 3,000 deep bows. Right. Right. So that those kinds of things. There, there's a lot of just lore around the idea of questions and things like that. And Zen.

Question The Question

The 3 A.M. Test

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah, I think uh he was, for the lack of a better word, famous famous for that. Um although, like I said, it's the arduous exertion. Um doesn't have to be 3,000 baws. Uh in his case, perhaps that's what it was. Um yeah, the the way that the sutras are in fact uh written out is like you said, there's a question that is being asked of the Buddha, and then the Buddha answers the question. And you know, within Zen tradition, if we're gonna go purist, um if there isn't a question, their monk doesn't say anything, right? You know, so because the the idea being um whether the sources are being scriptural and the sutras, you know, and if we have 84,000 sutras, what do you talk about? Sort of will be partly and um the underlying principle of that is that um which is which is partially also the reason why these the three thousand bars per se um is that the mind regurgitates into the forefront of the mind, so in the into the conscious sphere, um questions and and thoughts and ideas and and this and that and the the practice really is growing familiar and aware of that, that that is a thing going on. Um when we do not uh there's a lot of um identification with the thought, and and again this is uh sometimes uh displeasing to hear to uh thinking intellectuals who uh pride themselves or or or rely so heavily on the uh workings of their mind. And and this isn't to say that Zen teaches, you know, we should just be brainless, mindless thing. But the idea is to to bring into focus or into awareness um the question of the question. Question the question. And this is where Song Cho Sunimson and others like him. That was the idea. Uh you know, there was a I believe it was a Tibetan uh monk who just finished the the three-year silent retreat in seclusion or something to that effect. And um he comes out of the retreat and of course besieged by practitioners and and and all wanting to to learn something, and and the question is thrown, and the question is um how is one uh to think of their spouse or in the relationship? It's a relationship question. And uh the monk says, Well, who wants to know? Um come here at 3 a.m. tomorrow. Yeah. You know, this is perhaps I'm I'm I'm botching the the story a little bit. It's a but anyway, the point is the essence of it, yeah. And uh, you know, people say, well, you know, I mean, it's three o'clock, it's a little early, and and X, Y, and Z, and and a slew avalanche of excuses and pardon me um comes up, and um so easily are the multitude deterred by simply the fact that if you really want to know, you ought to come here at 3 a.m. and everybody all of a sudden is um too busy. And so that brings the question how much really did you want to know the answer? This is a very good point right here. And and of course, well, the the the most interesting part of it uh is that for the people who do come, he says um relationships, spousal relationships, I think in particular, he says um one and the other ought to be nice to one another. For soon one will be dead. And that was the teaching, end of story. You know, that is wonderful, and that's gotta that's a whole other thing. That's a whole other thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

That's a whole what I'm taking away about what you're saying is because I think we see it sometimes with some of our practitioners, this moment in time where you have this exchange with someone who has the Zen master who has diligently worked through some of these problems and has had some insight, some enlightenment into the reality of life. And the other on the other side is the person who's suffering, who at first glance they appear as though they're suffering deeply and they want this suffering to be resolved. And so when someone comes and their mind is very loose or very playful, or their mind is not really committed to the resolution of their suffering, then they ask a question and it almost appears like just play you're playing. Right. And then how serious do you ask a question? This if if you truly come and you understand that what is about to be expounded to you can literally alter the trajectory of your life, how do you not come with the mindset of great reverence? Some people just don't, right? And and and this also links to what Anson was very recently talking about Banyashim Gum, the hardsutra. He said when you respect it, you can memorize it in a day. And I almost it's not the same thing, but I'm just saying if you ask a question with respect, with respect for yourself or respect for the moment and what can come of it, you don't play. If someone tells you 3 a.m. How bad do you want? How bad do you truly want?

SPEAKER_00 9:17

How bad do you want it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Because I feel like some people ask a question, and it's not really I'm gonna absorb it and apply it in my life. It's I want you to now tell me, and then whatever you say, somehow magically by what you say will make everything go away.

Respect, Trust, And Self Honesty

SPEAKER_00 9:31

And that's not true. It is, it is uh it is a matter of respect. That is one thing. You know, it's um to a large degree a cultural element, also. You know, we have professors who profess, um, but the progressive uh uh and and this is rooted in legitimate concerns that the teacher or the professor or the guide um if such is the case that the guides have misguided in the past, on what grounds do I just hand over my trust to the guide? Right and um so there's some validity to that. On the other hand, um like you said, then then sort of why bother? So you person has to sort that out in their mind if you are respectful of your of your teacher, if you're respectful of the of the monk or the Zen master, whatever, um then you have to decide on either one or the other. And uh especially when it comes to the caution of simply matching what is being said, matching the answer to the already pre-existing understanding of the person. Because then you're not learning anything. You just you agree because it agrees with you, and you disagree because it disagrees with you, then might as well just talk to yourself in a mirror. Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

That's the point where some people don't even ask a question, they just want you to talk about it. Confirmation of confirmation. It's not a question, it's a confirmation of a yeah.

Training That Cuts Through Ego

SPEAKER_00 11:25

And there's a time and place for that, right? So many times we hear it uh in the sutras when uh a disciple makes a declaration and uh you know the Buddha says, Yes, it is so, or it says, Yes, it is so, but X, Y, and Z and corrects it slightly, adjusts it slightly, or adjusts it gravely, whatever it may be. Um But it it's what is the mindset, what is the intention, what is the understanding, and one has to know those things. That's why these arduous obstacles uh to being afforded an opportunity to answer to ask a question of a of a master is um for this very reason. Have you genuinely thought about your question? Do you genuinely is this a question that's going to potentially have this uh impact that just cracks you open and and and and you're you're free and and some shackles fall off or uh something to that effect? Um Zhang Nim's way of doing that with our own Sarim was uh if he asked a question that he hadn't processed or hadn't thought about, just sort of shot out of his mouth the way that you're talking about where it's just a conversation. Hey, you know what? Hey, hey, my toe itches. Why does my toe itch? Um and you know, if the question was that um I don't want to say shallow, because it the questions there aren't there are no good and bad questions, questions are questions, and in a sense we could say all questions are good for the their ability to bring about understanding. Um but that's just the question, but what the mindset behind it is. You know, so No Jagnim's way was uh if Unsalim asked a question that was uh like this, excuse me, um simply the answer was don't cook. Don't cook men, don't eat. Don't eat. It wasn't a punishment. This is the other thing we you know uh there was a other element to it that not only was it don't cook, don't eat, but because the two of them lived in the hermitage, that means the old man, the no jong name, didn't eat either. So there's another, you know, I mean, my I have caused my Unza to be hungry now in a sense or to not eat. And and what it did um is it sharpened the mind uh towards inquiry. And towards inquiry again, is there's a very, very big difference of genuine inquiry within oneself, thinking of the thing, trying to turn it ways and this way and that way, and simply the confirmation of one's own already uh established position. This is one of the bigger um problems when it comes to our work of self-transformation.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

It truly is. I think many people have a very hard time for a variety of different reasons, one of them being kojun kwanyum, right, that we discussed so many times, another one being just uh the extent or limitations of our own knowledge. But I think it's something that inhibits breakthrough. Because if you're going to expound uh or shine a light on a crevasse on a corner that is dusty and has not been attended to, that's going to require a person to look there. And obviously, if it's dusty and dark, that means you haven't looked there. Right. But sometimes when it's something new, people have a hard time or a fear they have a hard time changing their way of thinking and acting. So naturally there's some resistance and pushback.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

And and you know, as I mentioned, it is cultural and to a certain degree, and it is right to a certain degree, but it must be known to the mind of the practitioner, not just the sort of autopilot setting. The conversation you have with the Zenmaster or a monk, whatever, let's call them synonymous if for lack of yes. Um it's not although although chit chat. Although although we you know we do chit-chat uh because it there's a time and a place, but by and large, um uh it's not. It's not a conversation. And and one has to understand the fact that so we're where the the truth the the root the truthful root of a person being um doubtful of another person. Um like I said, there's there's there's uh some legitimacy to that, but what the the way to organize it is me and the monk or me and the master, or me and whatever, anybody, we are in fact the same. We are in fact the same that we are both human beings, that we are that we have the same um equipment tools that we're that we're operating with and working with. What sets one person apart from another person is how much suhang they've done. Yes, how much practice they've done, how much training they've done. That is to say, a world-class athlete doesn't have four arms. Right. They can't run faster because they have four legs, right? They ran because they practiced. They ran faster because they train, they run faster because they dedicate themselves. And and this is what we are in fact uh respecting. Um you know, if you recall in in Taekwondo, we would honor uh students from other schools who came with the rank. Yes. And uh I asked Gonzani Montan, I said, you know, such and such person, um looking at them, they don't, you know, it's doesn't match the thing. He said, Yes, but we honor uh or respect their sweat. Right. Meaning we respect the fact that they've worked the effort the work that they put in dedication. Yeah, and and sometimes it's you know, whatever wherever they practiced before, maybe they weren't challenged or maybe that the teachings weren't whatever it may be, but the point is they practiced, they worked at it. And so um that time put into work is to be honored, and and this is this is the same thing. Um we respect the teacher on the on the account of their knowledge. When it comes to Zen, it's uh frequently on account of the knowledge of first hand experience which then we have to understand isn't easy to do.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

You know, I think um you had brought up once um who was it that was giving a talk and a monk walked in?

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Oh, William James, the father of psychology. There's an anecdotal story where he was giving a a talk on at a university, and then a monk walked in and he said, I'm gonna sit down and you give this lecture.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Right. Right. And and that was an acknowledgement of of the fact that um an academic approach to understanding of the mind is beneficial and needed and and serves a purpose. But the first hand experience um from inside out in a sense, and and and someone who has devoted themselves so thoroughly, so uh focused on understanding of a thing uh ought to be given you know the podium in a sense. Sure. Now it is um it is the function of questions on both sides of the table in a sense, is on one hand the the student wants to know something. Um the other hand, the master knows where the student is by the question the student wants to be.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

I was gonna bring that up because a question is not just a question, we can open that up as a seed, and so many things come out of that. That was one of the things. When somebody asks a question, it is a reflection of the level of the person who's asking the question.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Right. And also then later on, um in in in in training. Um because there are stages, right? And and on some stages, yeah, these questions are are just very chit-chatty questions, very superficial questions, uh asked out of flaring up of the mind, kind of curiosity, empty curiosity, in in that it that it doesn't then uh get transformed into some practice. It's just the brain wants to know, mind wants to know. That it just as it devours the world around itself, it just continuously vacuums in information, and so it wants to also vacuum the information. And it's not used for any uh uh true transformative purpose. And so the the there's a time for that or or there's a there's a time of that.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Right. Because the response also is a reflection of the level of the person who's asking the question. And I think this is a fascinating part of Zen, which I think you're alluding to is that then over time you can ask the same question and you get a different answer. Right. Right. I we both have had that experience with our Unsanim. And sometimes it's puzzling. You can almost say but unsanim last time you said so the the question there, we're talking about questions, questions within questions, I guess the question there becomes did the answer change? And I would say it's that you have grown therefore your answer has changed. And you could look at children if you look at the question early on of you know where do we come from and we say the birds and the bees and then when children are in fourth grade we have a different way to frame it than when they're in high school is a different way to frame it. There's a natural development as one grows in knowledge and understanding.

Useful Questions Versus Mind Noise

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Yeah there's the knowledge and living and breathing right and the evolution so it's evolutionary. There's that and then there's something yet still which is what is the capacity at the time or the clarity of the mind of the practitioner to not even so much as to understand the answer but to accept the answer. That's a that's that's a bit because you know I used to get all kinds of fume fume furious uh in within myself when I would ask inside and he would say later you understand.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

I want to know now.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

And yeah and I said well I'm not a I'm not you know I'm may not be very bright but I'm not a complete imbecile and and so give it to me and I'll sort it out or or you know um for years this was the case and um there came a time when when I when I came to understand that and appreciate that um some answers wanting to be answered in the mind when given answers to cause more suffering.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Right. And the Buddha has the Bangpyon the uh example right of the arrow where the person's been shot with the arrow. Right. And what he's talking about people that ask some questions where the answers are not going to bring any benefit and actually could be an obstruction in their growth and progress right.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Yeah so the story you know it's it's a person's shot with an arrow and when the physician comes I believe it's poisoned arrow and um and the physician comes and wants to pluck it out to tend to the wound and the person says wait wait wait wait before you pull this out oh no who shot me? Was it a man or a woman? What caste were they from? What village were they from? What was the arrow made out of? What kind of wood? What kind of tip of the arrow? Is it poison made out of animal? Is it poison made out of plant? Is it you know what fletching uh are the feathers of what bird on the arrow? You know what was the bow what kind of bow uh did they use what was the string the bowstring you know and on and on and on and on surely that person would die and and this is a lovely story um and of course there's layers and and various meanings to it but um yeah to say what questions are really the questions that are going to unbind one from the suffering and the the insatiable desire um of the mind to move is uh is a culprit the mind moves continuously boiling and and it regurgitates out of the entirety of the ariashik the the the storehouse consciousness memories stories things ideas uh or what it thinks is our are ideas uh and just this kind of great vat of boiling mind and um it's chaotic by and large even though the person thinks no I'm I'm chill I'm I'm alright I'm you know I have a thing but um if you look at the arising and the falling of the mind and the rising and falling of the questions and and the source of where the question's coming from just because it arose in the mind doesn't make it um beneficial doesn't make it useful by and large it's not useful. It's just you know mind vomit pardon my French.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

I think Zen is a beautiful art I say art because uh there really is no map or formula where we can step by step outline the responses of Zen masters and I I think that no Jagnim had his own style everyone has their own style but sometimes when I think would ask a question where he hasn't fully digested it or it was coming out of that cloudiness or Ariashik vomit let's say No Jagnim could look up and say it's very cloudy today some kind of response like that. And I also think about in our exchanges with him sometimes even when he would pose a question it would leave me stuck stuck because it seemed at the moment contradictory and so my mind was just it was almost like he would just rattle rattle the mind to shake out all of the you know barnacles or toxins or parasites that were attached to the mind and one moment in time that I will never forget it it still stuck in my memory was when we were back in the Elizabeth school and we were uh in his house and we were helping him I think uh take down wallpaper and then he comes into the room with an apple in his hand and he goes uh one thing I want to show you guys or tell you guys is don't eat apples after six o'clock six o'clock it's bad for your digestion and then he takes a bite out of the apple and then I remember looking and I was like I'm pretty sure it's like 615 or something like that. And that rattles my brain for years to come. And so it's those moments with even with a question can be so profound and deep that it can be something that just sticks with you for many years. And and the point of it is not for you to at that very moment attain something. It's something that you think about over time.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

And contemplate yeah and and you know again the the sort of questions or or the the way that the question exchanges happen. Like we said initially you know it's just sort of very superficial bubbling of the mind. Right. And um that's where the curiosities and and those kind of questions come out. And then we have the Zen master asking question to the student and at certain stage of practice the expectation of the answer to be immediate is is stressed. Immediate um and the mechanism of it is very interesting because the idea is don't BS me don't BS yourself I ask what is that pointing to a thing the the question asks for the immediate first thing that pops out of the mind not for you or or or perhaps for the ego to try and formulate the most fantastic answer on the look how much I know right look how look how clever I am oh I'm gonna answer such a fantastic way it's gonna blow my teacher's mind I'm gonna dress up my response patter its face add some mascara make it glow. And and so the that's in terms of the answer of the student but also the questions are like that. So there's a there's a there are times when a person asks a question but they've been incubating the question for not truly incubating it in the Zen way. So perhaps let's not call it incubating they they were dallying up they were trying to formulate it and made it make it in in um to fit some expectation I'm gonna ask a very profound and question and my master will be impressed by how much I've come uh you know around how much practice I've done or you know I'm gonna ask the best question ever which is all a function of the mind again in this case a very egocentric thing um this sort of cleverness of a question that disguises itself as a question really isn't a question it's just some strange flex. Right the point is not to learn and grow in knowledge it's to flex and understand. This is how much I know so I'm gonna ask you a question about the thing so far beyond my understanding but you know I think that'll be a knowing that Zen masters have the great sword or sickle that can chop you down right from the root at any given moment. Aaron Ross Powell ask a question back and then just you know you stumble over your teeth and you you know immediately kind of like you said to the ego.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah I remember doing that early on we were again doing some kind of work there's a lot of work in Zen right Boshi practice early on well we still do it to this day but we did a lot of that with our own sonim and we were building you were doing some kind of woodwork and I remember had I had read something about uh Banyashin gun and and of course in my weak understanding of there's no good and bad I said unsanim. You know again I want to just show off that I know something about Banyashin gun and I was very green at the time I was like unsanim.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Oh you were using some kind of glue that smelled bad right so I my mind again at that moment I just want to show off what I know and I said look it smells bad but there's no good smell or bad smell right and he goes yeah it's a question of no question but some smells can kill you and I was like ding he struck me right in the heart that was a zing that I never forgot too it is a monkey see monkey do kind of thing yeah right and and um there is uh Zen is not uh safe from uh posturing and Zen is not safe from uh disease of the spiritual kind which is um which is even more so problematic when the mind's delusion is that of profound understanding of something you know and this is this is m and particularly with the whole idea of uh you know there's no good and bad kind of thing um which is a which is a an advanced is not even a word here but uh this uh the Buddha said that for one who clings to the idea of emptiness or this kind of negation of of the things even the Buddhas can help him because you know if one's delusion is for the lack of a better word practical or worldly or or tangible there's something to work with some some target uh some target which is actually the shackles that bind right um it's a material thing in a sense but when the thing is of no thing how do you unbind from a thing that is not a thing that binds and and you know mind is ephemeral and all of that and and so that it becomes it it it's uh Dostoevsky in in crime and punishment has a has a just fantastic line he says that uh men will get used to anything the scoundrel right and of course he you know in in the context of of um the book uh he's talking about the um how how human beings can grow so accustomed to atrocity that that it no longer makes impact on them um but it it's um on the other hand it's also how we can overcome such hardships because we could essentially adapt or accept the condition adapt to it and then transcend it or or work ourselves out of it but this idea of of of minds and and the human beings ability to adapt um you know it sort of also could lead to a complacency etc etc um yeah and then one can get lost in that realm. Right absolutely and and it's you know it's it's a understanding of how the mind functions and the trickery that it is capable of um we really are trying to the challenge is because the mind manifests what it conjures up and when we are not aware of the going ons we become a victim of our own thinking and and questions um are included whether it's the questions like you said that that um it's sort of hollowed uh curiosities that are just adding to the mind noise and and sometimes aren't answered by the Zen Master for that very reason. Yes um sometimes the the the what what we would perhaps call knowledge or information maybe is better um more information isn't uh necessarily a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Right more information isn't necessarily better. Right. Which can go against some of uh I guess common practices in mainstream education. Right. Especially in particularly when you're getting a doctorate you know they just want you to research something to death you know and get as many sources as possible. And that's the thing it's it's a separate thing outside we're not talking about that per se. It's a separate thing outside of that.

Koans, Generosity, Heaven And Hell

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Yeah and and and you know more information for what purpose? Right. That's the question. For what purpose sometimes there's just more noise and more banna in some in someone's head. And the purpose isn't asked we don't ask because it it's just a natural state of our sensory interaction with the world just vacuuming everything. And so constant barrage of information seeing hearing tasting smelling touching thinking thinking thinking thinking um this ravenous insatiable hunger for information um but we don't ask information to do what with information to be used how and and when we don't ask that and when there isn't an answer it's just sort of intellectual gluttony that that leaves it and the saddest thing is that leaves one still not satiated it's endless you know and this is why this is why we we frequently recall um call this world the realm of greed this is why we talk about greed as as the poisons it's this ravenous insatiable thing as the Buddha says even if the rain were turned to gold the greed will not be satisfied um right if it were only about gold right uh you know but it it's about the mind largely and and when we don't inspect the consumption of information and if we don't consider it to what end it is being used or useful to us uh the more isn't better um and the more frequently more of a thing uh means many if it were more of one thing but it frequently just means more of many a thing and that that splinters the mind further and farther further into billion quadrillion bajillion fragments and and shatters the person and then one doesn't know oneself because one is so thinly spread out across the the that which interests the senses and that which interests the mind that that there isn't a self left in a sense to inspect. And so yeah the the questions and and and the exchanges uh within Zen tradition are are brilliant is in the word here but they are unlike any other mechanism that I have come across uh in in the world's uh going on uh in my early um years I did a lot of um shopping for the thing that will uh you know and at at that time with just you know curiosity and and and interest and and some we could say perhaps even infatuation with the the traditions of the world and what they have to offer and and and um and and Zen and its ways of doing things now in retrospect looking back because then you don't there's something that was interesting you know um my uh I remember the when it comes to monkhood at least itself I remember our first trip to Bengnim Salah and and um I saw far away on you know a Buddhist monk you know Korean monk Sunyim and I remember distinctly the thought why is he wearing my clothes you know and it wasn't a fashion thing like oh that's cool I'm you know I like that it was as if this person there had literally gone into my closet and stolen my clothes it was a very bizarre thought um I I wasn't quite sure what to do with it at the time you know but um so perhaps some other layer of of of interest or karmic uh theater to the tradition but in retrospect looking at it it really is fantastically unique and it transcends or circumvents um the mind unlike any other tradition that I know yeah because if you know and this is where we get these things the mind is the source of our suffering but also the mind is the source of our freedom but also the mind is neither source of the suffering nor the source of the freedom the mind is the mind and and it's it's treacherous to to try and uh at some time at one point in time at one moment to have a conversation with the mind and then the next moment completely negate what the mind you know and sort of it's it's it's um it's really a continuous kind of bob and weave uh interaction with oneself which things to uh you know in This is where wisdom and discernment and ultimately self-understanding come. Um, and and questions uh within Zen tradition have a very unique use and at what time, and of course, and then we have these questions, you know, what was your face before your parents were born? Right, those are the Wadas, yeah. And the questions that are meant to sort of um throw a wrench into the gears. Rattle your cage of thinking. Shake your tree. To arrest, to arrest the punna, to arrest the the the you know um insatiability of the mind to arrest uh or simply at in in a certain moment to immediately cut off punna, which is to say, by the sickle or of of of the Zen method to cut off the suffering that the person is currently undergoing, if if done rightly, if done precisely.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

A question can also be a form of uh bhoshi or generosity too. Sure. In the sutras, Sakamuni Buddha always I remember after every question would say Sanja, Sanja, praises, praises the question. Praises the question.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Why? Because he says after the question, right? He says, Great good good man or good woman of a good family because of your question, the people gathered here will learn. And and it's um sometimes a disciple uh asks a question when the audience is present, yes, that perhaps they know the answer to. Yes, but they feel that someone in the audience then could benefit from the question or from the answer to the question, or or even sometimes uh that the question is meant to make people in the audience go, Oh, yeah, right, yeah, why why why is that? To sort of echo the question. Um so yeah, it it's it's not chit-chat. No. It's not shooting the breeze. It's not, it it's for each time a question is asked, which one of its um faces, uh, which one of its mechanisms are being employed? Uh it's it's um there's an interesting story.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Sometimes a question can also be a challenge, a challenging question. And we touched about that earlier. So Zen has a very unique and particular way of turning a ta a challenge into also a lesson. And there was a story that I was telling you earlier before we started the podcast was of a Zen master was in his monastery meditating, and a samurai came and challenged the Zen master and said, Give me a teaching of heaven and hell right now. And the uh Zen master spit in his eye, and the samurai became very angry and said, Do you not know I'm a general of an army that has over a thousand trained soldiers? And he picks up his sword, raises over his head, raises over his head, and the Zen master says, Ah, look, there is the gate of hell. And then before he strikes, the Zen master makes a hapchang, put his palms under his head, goes into a state of peace, and offers his neck, and he says, This is the gate of heaven. That's a lot of unpacking to be had there, too. But yeah. But again, it's it's just one of those exchanges where someone was trying to challenge with a question. The true intent wasn't to grow or learn or break free of their strong ego. Yeah. But somehow the Zen master turned it around, struck the heart, and actually gave a lesson of what is true peace? What is true happiness?

SPEAKER_00 48:07

Yeah, and and you know, uh, having said all this, for people who do not ask questions, they cannot learn. Yes. So the the want to learn, the the genuine desire to learn, um ends up in questions. Uh the Zen warns uh practitioners about the source of the questions, like we said. Is it is it a sort of ego thing, is it a this, is it that? But we encourage questions. Of course, yes. Because we are uh to understand and and actually actually the the most refined questions aren't questions that end up with uh more information. Um the answer doesn't give you anything.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

The answer takes away.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Um it doesn't add to the noise of the mind. It takes away the noise of the mind. Yeah, and brings one closer to one true self.

Final Takeaways And Share Request

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

I think that's our time. Yes. Thank you for your questions. Yes, very good questions today.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Very good questions. But in the spirit of Zen, come up with more questions. There you go. Yeah, the audience.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Yes. Um isn't asking much questions.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

If you don't have questions, then you don't learn.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Right. Well, until next time, take care of yourselves and each other. I'm Young Ansen.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

From my heart to yours, I'm Dr. Ruben Lambert. If you like what you heard, please pass it on to someone else that can benefit from our podcast.