SPEAKER_00: 0:16

Regarding the world through Zen Eyes. The depth, insights, wisdom, perspective, and scope of these podcasts cannot be overstated. I feel I grow with each one I hear. Each is a treasure. The topics are explored with humor, warmth, and accessibility. I highly recommend them. You'll be glad you tuned in. I sure am.

SPEAKER_01: 0:45

Welcome back to a late episode of the World Through the Nice podcast. I'm Young Anselm here with Dr. Ruben Lambert. And welcome back. I say late. Many things have been going on and a fan mail request with the Spectre of Valentine's Day on the horizon. Let's maybe the next year's. Because we kind of missed the boat on this one that passed. But nonetheless, with the spectre of Valentine's Day on the horizon, a reflection on relationships would be engaging. Relationship of a romantic origin are as much a cause of suffering as they are of joy. This seems particularly the case in committed relationships over the course of time as life circumstances and experiences put strain on couples. So often relationships grow strained and distant as the time moves on. What guidance does Zen offer for the maintaining relationships between couples through time? Many thanks for all wisdom you two share. Right. Um I think the just go right in, I guess. I I think uh one of the biggest um difficulties is uh forgetting the very fundamental teachings of of Zen, that is to say, for one impermanence of things. And as frequently is the case with these slogans and these single word, uh so much meaning is either attached to it and not necessarily the right meaning, or simply they're taken at such a face value and become so hackney that's a single statement, um especially when the word is viewed within the day-to-day context. So impermanence, when uh people frequently hear the word impermanence, it becomes uh the end is near. You know, the permanence is not the thing of it, and and so an end is uh something that the mind jumps to. So the thing is, and then we say the word oh, but it's impermanent, and then immediately the mind conjures up death of it, or the end of it, or complete cessation of it, and at the same time, a loss of the thing as it was. And I think uh it's so much more beautiful of a of a concept, so much more beautiful of a principle impermanence that is. We've talked about it at some point to some degree there is a instead of the the decay of something impermanence also uh includes an evolution, a growth, a change, right. And this is and this is where the trip-ups come in, uh especially in relationships.

SPEAKER_02: 4:46

Oh yeah. I mean if I had a penny for every time I heard you she or he is not the same person I married. Right. And she is not the same she or he is not the same person I met. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 4:56

I'd and and there's a and there's uh so for one, there is that uh pointing to the other as the only one who's subject to change and and being not the same as the one I've married. Um we forget that perhaps us two then are are uh also in the same universal law, right? Right, and um there is some uh attempt to freeze the thing, and usually the freeze and the hopes and the wishes for the freeze are for a relationship to be frozen in that puppy love stages, and that um what they call the honeymoon phase, right? I think it's called, which is the the initial uh time in relationships when when when the people uh are discovering one another.

SPEAKER_02: 6:02

And right, people hold on to that nostalgic phase, right? Right, where it's the Hallmark movie, sure, right? It's or that that romantic movie, like let's just say the notebook or whatever, everyone wants to go back to that moment of the way things were where every food that you ate together tasted sweeter, and every word that you said felt like silk on my on my chest. But yeah, it it is the freeze thing real fast. Like when I hear you say people trying to freeze, and I see this all the time, is it it it almost feels to me like a violation of the other person's human rights because a concept sometimes feels like, oh, I wish they remained this way. And it's like now this person imposing an idea or a way of being and engaging that person, not realizing that you married a person who's a living, thinking, breathing human being who has a right to to grow and and change and and expand the way that they think or the way that they believe over time. Right. And so sometimes, yeah, this idea of just freezing and bringing things back, or I wish they never changed this or that about themselves, really sometimes comes off like an something that you're imposing now on the onto that person.

SPEAKER_01: 7:20

Right. It it is the we have to understand that initial phase to be a phase of discovery. And of course, one doesn't know the other person deeply and profoundly, and so then the the mind then uh creates the um It's an illusion almost, right? In the eye of the beholder, this fantasy kind of thing who they are. Right. And uh it it is uh it is to be understood as a stage or a season in relationships. Relationships are like life itself, they're like an existence of anything itself.

SPEAKER_02: 8:16

Anything that you come in contact with, that you make an inon or a karma connection to, follows a certain cycle.

SPEAKER_01: 8:24

And then it alters its reality also. There's an intertwining when when you meet a person, you have been with the person for a brief period of time. Right. One thing is you only know very few things about them, although you imagine, you know, uh the romantic uh I feel like we've known each other forever kind of thing. Um so there's there's that element of um let me just and then continue down that path.

SPEAKER_02: 8:57

When I see a breakup very early in a relationship, let's say within the first six months to a year, where the person is in this romantication or fantasizing phase of the relationship or how they view the other person actually, those breakups can tend to be very, very severe and intense. And what I've noticed and I've said to people at the appropriate time is that I don't think you're really suffering the loss of that person per se. You're suffering the loss of the idea of who that person was because you rather really never got to know who they truly were. You just romanticized them and created this prince charming in your mind, which they might be or might not be. But I noticed people suffer the idea more than the actual loss itself, or what could have become these outcomes that never came to fruition.

SPEAKER_01: 9:46

Yeah, it is it is uh all subject to impermanence, all subject to change. That initial discovery is uh intriguing, there's intrigue, there's uh the you know, it's perhaps like a good movie. What's gonna happen next? What's on the edge of the sea waiting for some um impulsive, compulsive, spontaneous going-ons, and uh there's a rush in that, and and you know, from the perspective of chemistry, um there's a very different experience of uh love or initial relationships, uh chemically speaking, because of that um unknown element. And then the as the time progresses, the the for the lack of a better word, jadedness uh perhaps comes in and and changes uh for one simply the chemistry of the body and the chemistry of the experience of love.

SPEAKER_02: 10:50

Right, because then you're no longer like, oh, what's gonna happen next in this movie? And you're just captivated with watching it or not. I've seen this damn episode five million times. I already know what's gonna happen. You know, I'm gonna say A, B is gonna happen, we're gonna just X, Y, and Z, right?

SPEAKER_01: 11:04

Like And and it's and it's in the context of this again, it's understanding the changing phases and the seasons of relationships. There's the spring, the summer, the fall, and the winters of relationships, as they are with life, as there are with um seasons. And to appreciate each season for what it has to offer, and to understand the impermanence in a sense of uh growth and change and development, there's something new always. I mean, we're in a winter again, but last winter won like this winter, it's not so different. Snow, different everything. Um, and so this um wanting to hold on to a single phase of relationship and viewing it as uh spontaneous going-ons are bound to happen and can happen um hasn't ended um in relationships. But also we have to consider the fact that people get into relationships um and the very face of it is this pursuit of this puppy love kind of thing, the romantic, um, spontaneous. But at the same time, people get into relationships because they want stability in life, they want somebody to be with, and uh the hope is that you will be with them until your last breath. And so on one hand, we have the desire for spontaneous dramatic unknown, yeah, but then at the same time. They want that rush, right? But at the same time, we want the the kind of um stability of consistency. So there these these two energies in a sense are are at play.

SPEAKER_02: 13:11

It's it's almost like a fundamental it's it's almost in line with some of the fundamental causes of why we just suffer in general. Right? We we we create we try to manipulate reality when when the good things come, when I'm eating a delicious type of food, at the very last bite, you don't want it to go away, right? Or when I'm in a financial bind, or when I'm sitting in traffic, or if I'm you know feeling some kind of ache and pain, then can't wait for that to change that to go away right away, right? So it's like you're just yeah in that same kind of mental manipulation of reality that's just not working out.

SPEAKER_01: 13:52

Yeah, it's it's it's some strange uh aloofness from from the way things are and and uh you know the Zen teachings really are about the very fundamental. There isn't a lot, actually. There are very few fundamental points that that on which the foundation of which grows up everything else. So the the whole amalgamations and the whole reorganizations and the whole varieties of life experiences stand on very basic few legs actually. And and if we could understand those, um everything moving upward from there is uh seen in a better light. And so everything's in state of impermanence. That's one thing, understanding that, understanding that um our minds are fickle and move from one thing to the other, and when the mind produces within it a desire for a thing, it will unjustly negate everything else that is counter to what the desire produced in the mind wants. Um, you having a cup of coffee, if there was no coffee and the mind fixated on I need a cup of coffee, I want a cup of coffee, it must be a cup of coffee. Every liquidy drinkaby thing is non-existent. You'll suffer that because it's thrown out. Do you want tea? No, do you want water? No, do you want juice? No, do you want soda? No, do you want wine? No, do you want hot chocolate? No, do you want buttermilk? No, do you want I don't know gar gar do what do you know? None of these things will satisfy. Why? Because uh the mind fixated on wanting coffee, and so it's unjustly then throws everything else uh into the trash um because it's not getting that one particular thing, and actually, wisdom, actually, wisdom is the ability to adjust to those kind of things. That's what wisdom is. It isn't so much then the you know knowing multitude of things and saginess and and no, it's knowing how to, when the mind has fixated or shrunk, to unshrink oneself, or simply to understand the changeability and impermanence of things and bob and weave with life as it goes on.

SPEAKER_02: 16:52

It will unbind you from the bulldozer that your ego can be at any given moment, because what you were describing to me before, I just couldn't help to think. But this is also one of the root causes of many arguments in any kind of relationship, whether it's friendship or romantic, because there are a lot of tears and blood at the tip of the sword of I just want you to understand this one point that I'm trying to make, my goodness. Yeah. And it's just and then a person doesn't have the wisdom because the mind will just shrink wrap itself around that one point. No flexibility, no flexibility whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01: 17:31

And so the flexibility is impermanence, and understanding it as such allows us to appreciate the evolution of life, evolution of experience, evolution of relationships. And the two dogs were um grown dogs. One was a female, she was the younger one, and there was an older German shepherd, uh, you know, grandpa. And um anytime the younger one was in heat, grandpa would uh you know insist on pursuing her for um the call of the wild, you know, the the you know, his back his his real legs are giving out. He could barely walk, he could barely stand up, he could, but you know, you know, like a like a uh like the uh you know old man in a in a nursing home, you know, whistling at the younger uh nursing staff and and wanting to pursue the things that aren't his to pursue anymore. But the nature, the animalistic nature, still holds him. And so there is a reason why the seasons of relationships change. If throughout the relationship a profound um friendship is not established, um meaningful conversations aren't established. And this doesn't mean uh the couple agrees on everything. That's that's that's never the case. That's not and that's not uh practical anymore. Practical or suitable. One ought to have disagreements, but the disagreements for that you just talk to yourself in the mirror if you don't want anyone to disagree with you, but go ahead. Well, the mirror's gonna disagree with you because you want to look better than the mirror says, and you know, you don't want to age, but the mirror says otherwise, and and you know. Um and so the if if throughout the relationships these uh intellectual, for the lack of a better word, then uh elements aren't established, when the physical naturally speaking, the physical impermanence comes in. The relationship then can stagnate and and and become sort of stale on account of all now the sexual expression perhaps or the physical expression isn't uh isn't satisfied. Um so so there must be more that that is built up through the passage of time within relationships. Like conversations that aren't um and this is uh something that happens uh also because life dictates so much. So the conversations uh that begin to be established are simply um administrative conversations. If you got kids, who's getting the kids, who's picking the cup, who's making this, who's the who's taking them to this um play date or this or that, and it becomes very uh administrative as if the relationship becomes a professional relationship, right? It's a it's a company, and uh the employees of the company are are given tasks and the tasks are completed and the conversations uh evolve uh around these very practical elements of life and um the profound expression isn't given um a platform, and then uh people can have meaningful. conversations with one another and so they turn to their friends or you know and also that's frequently how affairs uh and and uh extra marital relationships form because uh somebody else seems to listen better and because these um these uh extracurricular relationships haven't uh the the pressures of the administrative elements of life so apart or in addition to um the administrative day-to-day coexistence of a family or relationship we have to remember to have conversations about things that aren't things that have sort of deadlines and must be done and checklists and honeydo lists and creates more pressure and stress right well and the it's a it's one topic and if a relationship keeps on only existing within that singular dimension of what needs to be done, what hasn't been done, what we have to do, et cetera, et cetera, and there's no leisurely if you know conversation or something other than it's almost like early on conversations were like this it's summertime and we we were getting to the drop top convertible.

SPEAKER_02: 23:35

We put it on the highway you know looking at the trees and and having a destination that we both agreed on would be whatever the beach super enjoyable and fun and then flash forward 10 years and now you know you're on a back road you know and uh as an Uber driver simply making deliveries nonstop and then you only have this one form of communication and you forget the other form of communication. And that can really cause a relationship to grow dry and stale over time and and this takes acknowledgement and and a lot of work to then kind of alter that and shift gears away from that because you can be a hundred percent consumed by the daily responsibilities of work and kids gotta make a living bills and creating schedules and things like that and then as you get older you have doctor's appointments and then the you have this moment that I've been talking to a lot of people in a certain age range that we call the squeeze where it's you have kids younger than you that need a lot of attention support and then your parents are growing elderly now and then they need support also and that's another additional stress on many people's plates in today's day and age, right?

SPEAKER_01: 24:55

And you know I think the privacies of each individual person some interests are maintained you know one person likes to read a certain book or what have you I mean at one point in time if you know unless the relationship was entirely and wholly based on the physical attraction then there was something limiting to begin with. And so that's going to take a lot more of doing to acknowledge the other elements of the person. But if if because again in that initial stages of relationship the conversations aren't so much of you know they're not business interviews I I don't think you know it's like where do you see yourself in 10 years you know in in the in the corporate ladder of existence the initial conversations are human you know what do you think about this and how do you feel about that and you know where would you like to go on vacation or what do you like to do when you know the there the questions pertaining to the personal interests of the person there they're questions pertaining to the viewpoints and the personal philosophies that a person has there are questions pertaining to deep seated desires and wants and wishes and and and dreams um and then once you know some of that information is acquired and then the relationship moves into the next stage and and like you said it's it becomes a organization and it becomes administrative you don't have the time for dreams or talk about talking about dreams because somebody's got to pick up the kids from school or what's what have you and then so each stage of relationship has still um drama the the very same drama in a sense that we seek in the early stages of relationship you know the uncertainty and the unknown and and and some kind of a pressure and an adrenaline rush like you said come to the squeeze and and now you have to tend to the parents and and there's a lot of sometimes though the squeeze and the things of that nature become a source of a lot of mumbling and grumbling because a person feels that their aren't in a sense fulfilled or being fulfilled on each individual level never even mind the relationship because now the pressure and the responsibility of children so now the children are taking the time away and now the pressure and responsibility of aging parents now the parents are taking the time away but the question is the time away from what these things are just complaints largely that I don't have the time to do what I want um and one could be asked well what do you want? And and uh the energy of the want the energy of the desire is um somehow disproportionate to what it actually is because they say well what if you had let's say you had uh you know you didn't have to do the the kids somebody just came and picked up your kids and took care of them and you know whatever and then you don't have the parents and they were taking care of what you they there were the initial wants and desires like I would just lay down and watch TV and and you know brain death um because this wheel of life and this sort of catch up I would I would just catch up on rest and sleep etc etc and COVID exposed the fallacy of these things for many people. Oh absolutely you know because how many times people say all I need is time and COVID was like here you go what is you gonna accomplish right and and um this isn't to say that people didn't pursue new hobbies or or or dive into the hobbies they already had or or some rich deep uh fulfilling uh pursuits weren't followed but I think for many people the the the things aren't thought about deeply anymore and so they the the wants and desires become what the person would then say you know just very simple I just wanna you know I just want to have time to do whatever I want. Okay what do you want? Yeah and so as the relationships evolve and then and then this is also the the basis and the foundation uh the dangerous foundation for the empty nest after the squeeze comes yes you know the empty nest and and uh it makes perfect sense if up until that point when when the kids leave home the relationship was uh reinforced only as a relationship of of academic serving a purpose serving a duty right administrating when that purpose and that duty ceases right then what are we here for and then and then people say I don't feel like I even know my spouse anymore well for one it it's hardly a surprise if one hasn't over the course of the time had as they would say haven't had the time to ask him or her what she would like to do or whatever it is everything bec everything has been reduced to administrative chores um so the the deep wants of the hearts uh people don't seem as if we there's no luxury for these things I don't have the luxury to be thinking about you know philosophical desires of the heart and and and uh the things that initially in the initial stages of relationships you know keep you up at night and you're talking for hours and hours about what there's topics you know explored there aren't uh um reports and I want to report on what you want on my desk by tomorrow morning they they're not like I said these these organizations this company this business uh thing they're they're conversations that go into the night because one is intrigued or there's some you know uh growing uh enriching disagreements not fights but simply well no I don't think that's how it should be well well I think that's how you know just kind of uh well what's your basis for your position and and and there's an enriching way to have a conversation on on on points of views that differ from one person to the other and then so when the time comes of course a person perhaps feels that they no longer know their spouse.

SPEAKER_02: 32:53

But then again taking into account the impermanence of of all things and that what they at least on the surface are desiring is things how things used to be and they used to be is in such a faraway place at the beginning of relationship well here you go there's a person if you haven't had the time because of chores and life uh sapped all of your energies and time out of it isn't this then kind of a second honeymoon to to enjoy uh get reacquainted with your spouse I'm talking about the empty nest uh you know time you know get reacquainted with one another see what you've been up to for these you know years that I I only saw you in passing and and you know uh as as uh you know we exchange book bags for the kids to go from this game to that recital or what have you and so that's a again a kind of a season of relationship and there's a time when the relationship uh you mentioned sort of human rights and and things where relationships become about a friendship um and then the the attempts or the disgruntleness about oh the person has changed or or the attempts to freeze a person are a violation of that uh evolutionary impermanent reality of life and so I think just to piggyback off of that why do we have to go back to this idea of the friendship being an important foundation to build the relationship on is I think it goes back to some of the things you were referring to early on in the podcast where certain terms get hackneyed, they get overused and the true definition sort of gets you have like weeds that overgrow on top of that. You know it's like a nice stone house that you can no longer see the stone because of all of the ivy that has covered it by persons or people's distortions or concepts of for example what my spouse means to me or what a relationship means to me or what love means to me because what kind of covers the pure foundation of all those terms is this idea of greed. Like I want this person to because they're my mine they're mine therefore mind you know starts off it seems like harmless right but then that just grows into a cancer that consumes you because my the ego comes in and then feels like I should control this person. You should agree with me you should remain the same you should do X, Y, and Z. And so when you can zoom out a little bit and you think about well what about the friendship aspect it makes things a little bit lighter where it's like okay there could be this now lighter exchange. There are less my tentacles are not wrapped around every aspect of what you're doing because you can really look at someone with eyes of they're too intense and too sharp like and this this becomes jokes too nowadays there are a lot of comedians that talk about right like yeah when we first started out together we loved each other and then now every time I breathe whatever it is now you're just intensely hyper evaluating and hyper criticizing every moment and it's like whoa chilla like you zoom out a little bit and then you can have an exchange and then not be so intense and this is why we have to like revert back to this idea of a friendship not not to say that the relationship should become a friendship we're saying like a friendship so that it's like less intense and that person has space to express themselves and you have space to express yourself and you can kind of like have a seesaw type of thing going on where you're enjoying yourself right you go up I go down you go up I go down versus you know things can be like this sometimes like maybe if a relationship was like a playground then we used to ride on the swing together it was so enjoyable. A few years later a person decides to you know I want to go on the slide right now and I want to stay on the swing and then instead of saying to each other like oh okay I I used to like the swing now I like the slide let me go do the slide with you people are like look at you enjoying the slide he used to sit next to me and just ride on this swing and we used to swing into the sunset. You know so you just kind of like tarnish that moment instead of you know again zooming out and be like okay I like to swing now you know you want to do that maybe we'll go on the slide a little bit come on over hun and do the slide but no one wants to come over when you're like look at you you're always over there you should be here with me. Now you're you know you know the human condition once you start ordering someone they're like that's I'm not going there I like it here they stand their ground and then you're you're these simple moments essentially escalate to like World War III and they stand the ground they stand groundless ground because the ground they stand is entirely composed and created by simply the ephemeral thoughts in their mind.

SPEAKER_01: 38:33

This is the most solid most grounded most groundless ground there is on the face of the planet essentially a person a a person's perspective or view. But you you know you mentioned the ego list the egonnessness of it and the greed yeah it's there's an ownership element when you get a thing so even even the identification and the the paradigm through which we look at relationships that is my spouse right there's a there's a my uh which is an expression of a sort of ego possessiveness and and then we we somehow imagine the when one gets a car and one then decides I'm gonna you know put different wheels on it and you know bling the license plate it's mine so now I get to decorate it. It's mine so now I get to alter it and repaint the walls in my house and you know I'm gonna add a deck and whatever. But human beings aren't like that. And that goes back to that violation of human rights. You know I've acquired an acquisition that this is my spouse and um with it the ego starts to work. Is it ever the case? And and one of the s one of the ways to look at relationships is not as a relationship per se and and this is a little challenging maybe to present but the idea of a Doban um toban is the friend on the path right and the Buddha talks about that you know so um yeah we are together serving a higher purpose in one another's life kind of thing. Another way to look at it is is uh instead of thinking this is my spouse one could say I am this person's spouse. I am theirs I am their spouse you know and and and it and it changes the paradigm from uh that person is here and their very existence is to satisfy um my desires my wants my to be the way I want them to be and and I get to remain unchanged or or if I decide to change well I change and that's because I feel like changing um and then the other person being deprived of their right to change or not change or what have you um so so if it's in this extreme of ownership and and and desire to alter the person to match one's own liking then we need to swing the pendulum in the other direction and and you know the person perhaps ought to think of themselves as the being of service to the other. Right. And in that service to the other perhaps that middle ground is is established because one isn't going to completely entirely throw themselves into a position of servitude and that's not also what we're looking for but to kind of uh come back to the central shared position. And and the trick or the challenge perhaps in in relationships is that the both sides have to be philosophically on the same page. That is to say philosophically on the same page of what relationship and the each individual role in the relationship we are trying to accomplish, we are trying to pursue. Like you know your role and I know my role in a sense and and that that bridges that disconnect because frequently there's a disconnect if if conversations aren't had um one cannot be expected to do or think or be or view things in the way that the other person expects them to do those things. But that's happens so often um so communication and relationship obviously you know this isn't any news to anybody but communication as in um any profound grasp of anything isn't accomplished at the initial onset of of diving into it. Read a book and I read the book and how many things are missed and so it's better to sprinkle into relationships um in a habitual Way conversations and things that that shape the foundation and the expectations of relationship, and and that the the the parties arrive at a somewhat of a common ground understanding of what each person's expectations or roles, etc. etc. are. In a sense of a you know relationship is a long-term uh therapy session between the two people and and they're voicing their thing, and and and it's a it's work, it's always work in progress, but life is work, and that's why if we think of the other person not only as um a spouse but also as a friend, but also even more so profoundly as a toban. I like the idea of the doban. But to help one another grow and and and if you know it doesn't necessarily have to be, but I think it ought to be, uh grow spiritually. Uh one serving the other while the other serves them back, together going towards happiness, the profound happiness, not not even the happiness that the other person can furnish upon one another. This the spousal kind of thing, oh you do for me, I do for you. No, the the together we are working towards each one of us to grow wiser, to suffer less, to heck, reach enlightenment. We are we are uh reinforcing one another on our path, we are supporting one another on our path. But the path um there are dimensions of it. You know, Huanggyung um so frequently uh I I speak of the the principle of the perfumation of of worlds, you know, and and yeah, there's a uh there's a physical dimension of relationship and and the world of it. There's that friendship dimension and the world of it. There's the administrative, the responsibilities, and the together well-oiled machine working towards a common uh goal of less less stress for the whole family unit, and therefore less stress individually. Uh and I want you to reach enlightenment, and you want me to reach enlightenment, and together we can be there for one another. It's a you know, we talk about the temple, um, like let's say the Soshimsa Zen Senner, you know, the temple. Um that's one kind of a temple. Then uh the Sangha and the community of the temple are the people that um tend to one another in a sense. But then there's also the society, and we ought to tend to one another and look out for one another. And of course, in the in the the the other direction of this uh sliding scale, the the temple and the sangha, the community of a family unit, and and those members of the temple of the home working towards one another to try and bring each other closer to enlightenment. And I think when when all these um various dimensions are addressed in life, uh then there's a whole sort of state of homeostasis and a balance. It's it's it's as the sort of definitions of sickness in oriental medicine, we've talked about this several times. Uh you know, there's something is lacking somewhere. So some energetic element isn't being provided. There's not enough of this or not enough of that. And so if if all of these dimensions of life are tended to and nourished, um the changeability of of of relationships, the seasons of relationships that oh it wasn't, it isn't like it used to be, aren't problematic. They're they're actually fascinating because each stage as each season uh provides opportunities for different things. Uh spring does spring things that winter can't. But winter also does winter things that spring can't, and uh you know, with all the other seasons. And and if we could acknowledge those things and um you know, you don't go into winter not having chopped sufficient wood to keep you warm through the winter. Right. And and so it's it's that kind of thing. It it's um uh little by little adding to the wood pile that could sustain us through the you know, through the wintery uh phases of relationships.

SPEAKER_02: 49:43

Yeah. Yeah. So I love the uh concept of the Dauband though. I think that's a very nice way to to frame it.

SPEAKER_01: 49:55

Yeah, in life, the whole of it is a if we were to say the purpose of life is uh to grow towards enlightenment, towards freedom, um the classroom of existence, the classroom of day-to-day, the the courses we take. A relationship is a course you take. Um, and all those courses and all those things have um uh things to offer, but we also have to understand that some credits transfer, some credits don't transfer. So um yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we're out of time anyway, so um hopefully uh the listeners find some morsels of uh usable uh something.

SPEAKER_03: 50:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 51:00

Information, wisdom I mustn't say. Um but until then, and until next uh episode, whenever that may be, we're we're we're making an attempt to get back on the horse um uh since it's the year of the horse. Since it's the year of the horse, right. And um yeah, so until next time, take care of yourselves and each other.

SPEAKER_02: 51:28

I'm Yogan Sunim. I'm Dr. Ruben Lambert from my heart to yours. And also we really appreciate the listener feedback and any topics that you would like for us to further explore or to piggyback of off of any existing episodes, please send those in. We really appreciate those. And if you know someone out there who could really benefit from these conversations that we're having and the education and wisdom that we're spreading throughout the world, please share uh our podcast with them.

SPEAKER_01: 51:59

So thank you very much. Yeah, we should make it. We should make it. It was like we're not doing a podcast until y'all have a question. All right, why should we do a podcast? Like the the way that the sutras were a sake in my hall and I want everybody to I'm gonna talk about it then. No, you have a question, bring it on. Yeah. Also, um we are uh having a retreat, a one-day meditation treat, a day-long meditation retreat um coming up in June. And we also have one scheduled for November. So June 13, November 14. I know November is uh sometime out, but um mark your calendar, check the website.org slash do you know is it slash retreat, maybe slash retreat, or you know, when you go to social network, you see the the tabs and all of that. So check that out. Um it's filling up uh daily. So there's capacities, obviously, and and and um so don't hesitate thinking that it's there's ample amount of time to uh get your reservation booked because they're gonna be gone. Um so better uh better sooner than later, better safe than sorry. Until next time.