Speaker 1: 0:15

welcome back everyone to the world through the nice podcast. I'm young and sitting here with I'm dr Ruben Lambert. We are back with episode, I believe number eight.

Speaker 2: 0:31

Alright.

Speaker 1: 0:32

There will be a time when I stop counting, and that's getting very close. Apparently, I was told by one of our listeners Splendid podcast. Regarding our last podcast, however, two seconds in Myung-han Sunim can remember that it was a third, not a second, fan mail episode and that's true Was it yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01

It was the third one and in my brain it was the second one. So you see how much of that it really is. You know, we at least do some really minor, if you will, preparation, and this isn't to say that we don't want to produce something well, but it sort of is the nature of the podcast right. We kind of meander as we say and and things come to mind as we do it. It's not sort of rehearsed.

Speaker 2: 1:38

We have no rehearsal podcast prep, if you will it's sort of like if you were hanging out at a coffee shop with us, right, and you're just eavesdropping.

Speaker 1: 1:47

That's right, and it's somewhere, probably during the middle of the week. We'll say, hey, what should we do the podcast about?

Speaker 2: 1:58

By the way.

Speaker 1: 1:59

By the way it's coming.

Speaker 2: 2:01

Yes.

Speaker 1: 2:02

And this is where the listener participation really is kind of nice and also unburdens, at least for myself. The basic principle really is, and in Zen in particular, that unless there's a question you don't teach. That's the purest kind of thing. So unless someone meaning question means it suggests interest, otherwise the breadth of topics is so broad, so wide, so much stuff available, so many entryways and so many doorways and entry points and topics and things and entry points and topics and things so to Well, we know, or Buddhism encompasses the whole cosmos.

Speaker 2: 2:51

We have right, 84,000 sutras, which 84,000 is really not the extent of the sutras, it's just a number delineating a lot, right? And so, yeah, I want to learn something.

Speaker 1: 3:06

What's the question?

Speaker 2: 3:07

Yeah, what's the question? Helps you zoom in on the point Right.

Speaker 1: 3:13

So today's topic, belief, again one of these topics. So far, I think what we've done is we've I don't know synapses is what we do within the one hour or so of time. We really haven't the time to get into the thing. So I'm sure at some point in time we're gonna kind of come full circle and reincarnate back into the episodes that we started with, patience, for example. I mean, how much can we talk about patience and the self and the no self and the consciousnesses and such? These topics really, really are general topics. They're broad topics and we certainly will be returning to them. It is also our hope that in what we say, let's say today, we're going to talk some about belief. Hopefully a listener hears something, gets inspired by it, moved by it in whatever way, and then wants some clarification or some detail and ergo the birth of some new future episodes.

Speaker 2: 4:26

Right, I think that we're always open for someone to have a question, even if it's in reference to a prior episode, right, it's very nice for someone to say hey, you know, I heard you guys talking about patience and its function when it comes to BOP, the weather, the environment. Can you further expand on that? I like to go hiking and I want to further understand, For example, you know and we could definitely in future episodes, like you're saying, come back around and elaborate on the topic.

Speaker 2: 5:01

And if there's something going on in your daily life, you've encountered some difficult situation and you're pondering about how I can change my mind about viewing this situation or what kinds of techniques I can use to adapt to the situation. Sure, ask away. There's really no limit to the topics that we're willing to tackle and expound on.

Speaker 1: 5:26

Absolutely, and that's where the fan mail comes in and you could comment in the various platforms and we'll hope to get to it, I think.

Speaker 2: 5:39

We just can't talk about one topic how to fix a bad hair day that one's beyond our reach, oh I know. Topic how to fix a bad hair day that one's beyond that one's beyond our reach. Oh, I know exactly how. I don't have any personal wait a second speak for yourself, mister.

Speaker 1: 5:53

I know exactly how to fix a bad hair day. How's that? A razor?

Speaker 2: 5:58

just get rid of it, right, I never have a bad hair day.

Speaker 1: 6:01

Just uproot the whole problem never have a bad hair day. I'm always aerodynamic, that is true, uh, you know so. So, uh, move through the world like santa claus that's zipping because of the higher dynamic head. Yes, belief, I would like before we jump in.

Speaker 1: 6:22

I don't know, is it really, before we jump in, I would like to extricate this term belief from its captivity by the religious sector. It seems to me, for the most part, when the word belief comes out, somehow the mind tends to immediately conjure up religious connotation, religious context and with it. For those of us who have been burnt by religion, uh, tired out by religion, our particular maybe. Religion, what, what have?

Speaker 1: 7:02

you as is the common situation. People are wanting more and the rigidness, perhaps, of religion is not suitable to this modern day, and so we have to have some adaptability. Anyway, no, tangent belief it is not a religious term. Folks believe is how we operate in the day-to-day. Yeah, consider every moment from here on that I'm facing forward. I am facing forward and towards the darkness of the unknown. We don't know what the next moment brings. And so, forward facing. We are facing belief, we are facing life with belief, that which we look behind us and the experiences, those things, that is the knowing. We've had the experience, we understand that.

Speaker 1: 8:11

But the next moment is hinged, entirely based on belief. We make a lot of presumptions and things like well, I wake up in the morning and I'm going to be alive, for example, and I believe that, and so I made plans yesterday for the today, but the truth of the matter is we have no guarantees. Furthermore, I went to sleep. I slept quite well, why? Because as I was drifting off to sleep and I was looking up at the ceiling, and then I closed my eyes, and my eyes still closed and I still comfortably, and I sailed away on that Carmel waterfall of sleep. Yes, because I believed that this roof is not going to cave in in the middle of my night.

Speaker 2: 8:58

Because we see also the complete opposite to be true too. The complete opposite to be true, too For the person that puts their head on the pillow and they believe that there's some impending doom that's going to come to them in that very moment or in the future. Primarily, it's the future right People get into this anticipatory anxiety state. They can't rest, they don't close their eyes because they believe they actually truly believe, that some harm will come to them, and their body and mind responds as if it were true Right.

Speaker 1: 9:35

So we have that belief. It's almost like the power of creation and destruction is within your hands.

Speaker 2: 9:41

Is it good, like I was just saying, saying like, what are you creating or what are you destroying?

Speaker 1: 9:46

that's right so again, this idea of belief as a, as a one-sided thing, makes it lopsided thing and and also I think that's why it it is so heavily made into a religious thing, because you believe in a thing and that thing largely, you know, has this one-sided connotation. But, like you said, you could believe enough to cause yourself anxiety. You could believe enough to to cause yourself insomnia. You could believe enough to make yourself physically ill. I mean, psychosomatic illnesses are a real thing and they're rooted in the psyche, they're rooted in the belief.

Speaker 2: 10:31

That's a great topic, that so-called psychosomatic. There are so many anecdotal stories referring to that and, yes, it is very powerful.

Speaker 1: 10:38

So now that we have sort of rescued it out of its only purely religious connotation, we have to consider it that it exists in our day-to-day life. Everything we do believe that that's not poisonous, that it is in fact coffee. That is in fact what you've ordered. That is in fact you know. Shenanigans aren't going on in the kitchen yeah, you don't believe that it's poisoned.

Speaker 2: 11:13

right, because if you're working with someone that suffers from delusions, I'll tell you. When they believe that somebody is out to, if they have delusions of persecution which is actually a subcategory of schizophrenia they may believe that their coffee's poisoned. And guess what? It's not an idea. Everything in that chain of command will then follow that order. Their thoughts will then match oh my God, someone's out to kill me. Their feelings will match that There'll be a feeling of paranoia and then their actions will follow that same course. You won't see that person sipping peacefully that cup of coffee. They'll be there.

Speaker 1: 11:57

You'll see it in their eyes. You'll see it in their body.

Speaker 2: 12:00

Yeah, they won't even be there because that will bring them harm, and that is the governing belief that has impacted all of those aspects of the person Right.

Speaker 1: 12:11

There is a Zen thing, and I don't recall exactly if it's from one hill, teza, or elsewhere. It's the idea that there are, there are no roadways through the great ocean, and yet we traverse it. There are no steps or ladders in the sky, and yet birds take flight on a path, etc. Etc. And so there is no way really, or there are no steps to enlightenment.

Speaker 2: 12:48

We've mentioned the seven steps of one and three and I'm going to write my book, which is six steps. Gotcha beat there you go.

Speaker 1: 12:54

But there are steps to enlightenment, but they're steps of no steps, in a sense. So, xin he, heng, zhong are the steps, if you will, and xin being belief, yeah, he is. Then, therefore, the acquisition of knowledge, the wisdom, the heng, then, is the activity of the putting the thing into practice, putting it into into motion, and then zhong is this seal of approval. It's your, your diploma, your driver license, your certification of any kind. When a student enrolls in college, they have to believe that they're going to graduate eventually, and that's within their reach Right.

Speaker 1: 13:51

They have the capacity and that goal is within their reach, and so then they wake up on a daily basis. They wake up, they go, they do the thing. Why? Because behind it sits and it's the wind in the sails is the belief, and then eventually you get your diploma, which is your proof of persistency. That's powered by belief.

Speaker 1: 14:17

What I see, and take it how you want it, in child rearing I see sometimes parents who really want to explain the truth of the matter to their children and they're so fixed on this. I don't tell my children stories, I tell them exact truth as it is, and the dismissal of the capacities we're not ever going to get into that, but the idea that a child, as a person then, who grows up, has never for lack of a better word practiced belief. Yes, and then we're asked do you have to believe in yourself? How, how? I've never exercised the muscle, because the idea of belief is something that is to simplify it, maybe something that is not yet, but I can, I will, and so you have to envision, you have to have an imagination and you have to envision the thing that isn't. You know, wright brothers and and yeah, inventors and things of that medicine.

Speaker 2: 15:39

It's in it's, it's in that, in the hands of belief, I mean I have a saying and I use use the Wright Brothers for that saying is the person that had to see it to believe it stood on the sidelines and watched the Wright Brothers believe they can fly.

Speaker 1: 15:57

I'm glad you bring that up because, pardon me, but if there was ever a more silly and absurd statement as I will believe it when I see it you missed it.

Speaker 2: 16:14

I mean it's an oxymoron for one right.

Speaker 1: 16:17

If you see it that's not believing, then you now know. So I will know when I see it is true, I will believe it when I see it is not true. The definition here of belief and knowledge, or experience, if you will, is completely different. And so to say I'll believe it when I see it is an absurdity, it's a ridiculous statement Right.

Speaker 2: 16:46

That's why there are so many missed opportunities that come to people that strictly adhere to that philosophy and that becomes a governing principle in their life. When you look at any new movement, they typically call it a grassroots movement. Why? Because when you plant a seed right, you don't see any action. There's no activity, there's no sprout there. All you look and see is dirt. And in the early stages, when there's nothing there, there's nothing tangible.

Speaker 2: 17:12

The people that jump on board are only the people that believe truly in that project and the mission of that project, because when you look, you just see dirt. Like what are you guys doing? There's nothing going on there. And there have been so many examples of people that missed the boat. I think I don't know the exact name, but there's that story of the gentleman that was part of the apple team in the early stages with uh steve jobs and he sold his stock very, very early on and he oftentimes gets knocked because it's like man, if you just would have stuck around like everyone else that stock that you had, if you believed in the project, your worth would have been 100 million times more.

Speaker 1: 17:52

And so we could say, we could say you know, philosophically speaking, right, that is the thing you know to say, I'll see when I believe it. That means you can't travel anywhere If you haven't been there before, then how do you go to a place that you've never been to? In a sense, belief is the way that we operate in the world. That we operate in the world, like I said, it's been sort of hijacked and utilized seemingly only in the religious context.

Speaker 2: 18:32

Isn't that a little sad too? It makes me a little sad when you describe it that way. You're referring to a parent earlier talking to their kids that way. I've never seen it. Dad does such and such exist. I've never seen it. How do you know? That's not just the extent of your experience whatever wall right. And then you have now that child which is budding with the full potential of anything in life.

Speaker 1: 18:55

You've now put that kid into a box solely because that didn't come to you in your lifetime yeah, the little kid is playing with, you know, say, a toy car, and and he's driving his toy car around the carpet on his imaginary roads and all of a sudden he takes off and he's flying, and and the parent sits by and says, listen, you know, cars have wheels because they drive, they don't fly, so you keep the wheels of your car on the road the way that.

Speaker 1: 19:28

this is exactly why I don't have flying cars yet, because every parent with the wisdom of their own grandoy's experience has imparted onto their child, not the things that ought to be imparted how to be a good human being, this sort of home education but the technical education or the technical knowledge of the parent. And we all have shortcomings, everybody has shortcomings. But to then pour onto, and of course this is all we have. So you impart what you have. But we have to be cautious in trampling things, like you said, in that potential genius of the child and to trample and bulldozer and flatten it out with our big boots of life experience, usually with some flavor and seeds of already having been jaded by existence and beaten down. And personal disappointments and failures are in there. They sneak in consciously or unconsciously, subconsciously, subconsciously. Episode number seven all about subconscious.

Speaker 1: 20:47

So this idea of allowing for belief to exist without our thought that everything must be explained. Then you explain away invention, you explain away wonder, you explain away awe. And again, this is, you know, a good scientist believes. I believe that a good scientist believes Right, they go to the lab, they go to the research, whatever it is that they do, why? Why would you?

Speaker 1: 21:27

I mean, unless you're one of those people that just goes and just logs in hours to get the paycheck, then you're just a worker, maybe not a pursuer, not a researcher, maybe that kind of thing. And you know, maybe I'm being a little harsh and I hope people don't take it that way. What I'm saying is that in the heart of the researcher there's a belief that we can find, whatever it is, you know, the cure for such and such disease or a solution to such and such problem that yet hasn't been frequently found. And that's why we're doing all that work, all the scientific pursuit, all of the research, all of that hard, hard work, and that whole Edison thing I think it was. I didn't fail a thousand times, I just found a thousand ways not to do it.

Speaker 1: 22:27

Think about it Each one, each one, each one, each one. There's a persistence, and that persistence must be governed by belief. In fact, that's what its heartbeat is.

Speaker 2: 22:37

It fuels perseverance.

Speaker 2: 22:39

If you don't have that I oftentimes tell this to students when they want to pursue higher degrees like a master or a doctorate If you don't truly believe two things number one, you're capable of achieving that and number two, the value in the doctorate you have to see the value in that goal Because if not the second you enroll in one of these higher degrees or in college, you're going to be faced with some kind of a challenge and it's almost like a mathematical equation If the pressure, the resistance that's being thrown at you outweighs or outdoes your driving force, you're going to succumb to that weight that's in front of you.

Speaker 2: 23:25

Because your driving force, you're going to succumb to that weight that's in front of you. And the only way that you're going to push through that hardship and push through those nights where you just don't have it anymore to continue is if you go back and you hunker down and you go back into the depths of your heart and soul and you see that you believe, no matter what, you can do. This and all of this work, all this effort, whatever you sacrificed because it's always going to take sacrifice it was all worth it. When you feel like it was worth it, you push through.

Speaker 1: 23:54

Yeah, it makes you overcome difficulties. It is belief, at least deep, deep inside, is what's there. So the first step to action is belief and in that Zen context, in that Zen saying, like I said, the first thing is we believe that the thing we are pursuing is reachable, we believe that the thing we are after exists for one. It is the first step. In every action, Whether it's a conscious thing or unconscious thing, still, this is the mind and the heart and the soul moves in that way. Then, through the action, like I said, through the action, like I said, through the hard work, through hunkering down and doing, doing what you need to do. This is where the acquisition of the experience is.

Speaker 1: 24:54

So, as we're forward moving, you, we do the work. If we contextualize it in zen, you know, know, you do your meditation, you do your training, you do your practice, and your life becomes lighter, happier, and you keep going that way and you acquire wisdom and this wisdom then governs your next behavior. So it's a chain reaction. It's not just that the one thing keeps on going. They're, they're links, connected links. Uh, if you want to think of it in terms of that imagery of the indra's net, where it's a big net. At each point where it's tied there's a diamond, and that diamond reflects all the other diamonds and if you tug at it here, that kind of thing. So so this idea of putting the thing into work, being birthed initially by, by belief, being put into work, then we get the experience.

Speaker 1: 25:56

From that experience comes the wisdom and then we get the certification mm-hmm and the more lofty the certification that we're pursuing, the more stronger the belief must be usually.

Speaker 1: 26:24

And and then we get into this kind of slippery slope within Zen, where the things that seem to contradict everything in our sensorial experience is what we are after. And this is where I think the Western interest in Zen lies, and this is frequently where the big snagging hooks are, within this idea of self and no self. We touched briefly upon it, and the Buddha himself says that, for one who fixated himself on the idea of emptiness or void or whatever you want to call it, even the Buddhas can help him. You know, because we believe, believe in a thing, and and I'm kind of overlapping some other episodes here, but you know, this is what we do, right, the, the belief in a self and and and a physical self as the only self. We could inspect it with our, with our, uh, we could make a thought exercise of it, and and we could unbind from it. But how we could unbind from it? But how do you unbind from the binding? That is no binding Right right.

Speaker 1: 27:54

Which is this idea of emptiness and whatever that people get so entangled in and flap around in this net of it. So, just to echo some of the other episodes stop it.

Speaker 2: 28:10

Well, yeah, I think, for example, when it comes to the body and belief in health is one of my favorite topics, actually, because then you get into these topics of placebo and nocebo, which are the positive versions and the negative versions of what you believe and how it governs and functions within your body. Belief and how it governs and functions within your body, and it is a very, very powerful function of the mind, right. But when referring to the belief about the self, if you just believe, it's a very sad life. If you just put yourself into the box of this is solely who I am and what I am, because it's ingrained even in our language. Raise your right hand, right, I'm gonna hypnotize you now that was a hypnosis test.

Speaker 2: 28:59

You, you, you, you, you agreed to my suggestion. Now close your eyes no, but uh your hand. We don't say raise hand, right. You know what I'm talking about right and so, yeah, that, right there, even in our language, it's referring to yes, this is just a part of the self, it's not the soul self. Because then, when you encounter any kind of tragedy, if you're encountering sickness, for example, or pain, if it's your pain, then understand that you are experiencing this.

Speaker 1: 29:34

You are not that. There's a freedom that if you can tap into that right.

Speaker 2: 29:41

It's built into our language so many people miss it. Even there was a movement several years ago in psychology when it came to labeling a person as schizophrenic, for example. We don't say that anymore. We say a person with schizophrenia Because again, when your mind just shrink, wraps around some label and you believe well, this is the extent of who I am.

Speaker 2: 30:05

These are the four walls in which I am. That governs who I am, then there's no escape. Which I am, that governs who I am, then there's no escape. There's no freedom. But listen to the language. This is your body. What's the your?

Speaker 1: 30:17

that holds this body? Who's this?

Speaker 2: 30:20

you, yes, All these things tying together.

Speaker 1: 30:25

Zen fits in very well there, and there's a freedom there, of freedom from suffering if you can tap into that, want to, because this division, almost right Like the belief, is this silly, childlike thing. You just believe the thing, you believe anything, blah, blah, blah. And in the search for some certainty, and you hear the arguments against believing in whether it's God, whatever, whatever it says. Oh, you know, you want a comfortable blanket. You know there's no such thing as this and that All these things have been conjured up, they're fairy tales for the adults. And the argument then is why? Oh, because it brings some sense of peace and certainty. And so you know we're not walking around, all you know, just vibrating and caffeinated and panicky about. You know the reality of life, Because the reality of life is X, Y and Z, and so then the belief is then pinned against.

Speaker 1: 31:49

What that kind of person might say is the certainty. And pardon me if I'm wrong here, but certainty gives you the certainty and you're certain that your way is the way. You're certain that of your perspective You're certain of your point of view, you're certain of your thing, and so your certainty gives you peace, and of your point of view you're certain of your thing, and so your certainty gives you peace and comfort. And it's a fairy tale. So it could have a certainty of the fairy tale, and the certainties are constantly evolving. So, if we really look at it closely, every scientific breakthrough, there's no certainty in it. In a sense, the certainty is momentary aha, moment right and then we, what do we do?

Speaker 1: 32:38

we keep on going, we keep on going. So it's a momentary celebration of some discovery and and this, this is not a certainty the discovery and the celebration is for just ah, my mind has been enlightened to some new understanding. Aha, I had an aha moment. We celebrate it. So it's a personal journey in a sense, and collective if it's something that is broader in its implications. So we have these woo-hoo and aha moments, but we continue forward, moving on this heartbeat of belief.

Speaker 2: 33:17

It's no different than school, right? You graduate eighth grade and you're like woo-hoo. Then guess what? You get to freshman year in high school. Yeah, when you look downward you know eighth grade, down through pre-K. But when you look forward, guess what? There's a whole new world that you now have to explore. So enjoy, but also be humble, because there's more learning.

Speaker 1: 33:40

It's never-ending right.

Speaker 2: 33:41

There's more learning to be done.

Speaker 1: 33:44

And this is the never-ending element. The never-ending element is a wonderful thing to consider, because ending would be sort of to die, but to die is not to end either. Everything is never-ending, in a sense, so there's a continuum.

Speaker 2: 34:05

I know a guy who said that 2,500 years ago, right Siddhartha, good old Siddhartha. I think I was onto something. Perhaps this is not the episode.

Speaker 1: 34:15

but you know, dr Ian Stevenson famously has that you know a big book.

Speaker 2: 34:22

Oh, I want to do a whole episode on that, yeah, of reincarnation and the children and the recollection of their lives and things. Which reaffirms that life is continuous but that's.

Speaker 1: 34:34

It says that. Right, so you believe if you want to believe. You don't believe. If you don't want to believe, I could tell you this I immigrated here when I was 12 ish, I think, and when I came here you know I've seen, we've had TV, we didn't live in a cave, where I came from right. But consider if you will, maybe some tribe somewhere you know, living nakedly in a forest, and now you take them and you helicopter them or fly them over into a New York skyrise with hot running water and a jacuzzi and air conditioning and heating, and what I mean. Tell me. That person doesn't say well, I've died, and this is now heaven.

Speaker 2: 35:39

This is heaven. Yeah, Heaven on earth.

Speaker 1: 35:41

They found it. And so this idea of belief as a first step, it is a belief as the first step that then gets renamed experience, or gets renamed understanding or wisdom or what have you. Wisdom is not. There are varying definitions of wisdom, at least within Zen tradition. One definition of it is a little bit more transcendent.

Speaker 2: 36:18

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:19

Where you know, I have the wisdom, the wisdom of foresight and the wisdom of. In a sense, the wisdom is the and, without getting into xintongliu, which is the kind of powers supernatural powers, if you want to call it that but they're not supernatural, they're natural but anyway, the idea of wisdom as the ability to see the outcome of one's actions, the kind of causality and we all do it.

Speaker 1: 36:53

I mean, if I throw a rock at this camera, it's going to break it or knock it over or what have you. So there is that foresight and I have the wisdom to see into the future in a sense, but it is based on only my experiences, and if I've never experienced a camera that's maybe designed for extreme sports and and gets rocks and things pelted at it all the time, it might do nothing to this camera.

Speaker 1: 37:24

So we are governed by belief, whether we like it or not whether we contextualize it in some organized fashion or not, but you don't wake up, frankly, you don't go to sleep if belief is not some. And when we call this the five roots, also the within central chemical, the five roots are these things that are innately existing in every body. Everybody has it. But, as you were talking about the seed and the grass roots, the roots, why are the roots? Because they're beneath the soil. You cannot see it. When they sprout, when they break out into, if you will, into, the conscious mind, then they are seen as a sprout, et cetera, et cetera. Exactly, but prior to that they're unseen. But just because a thing is unseen doesn't mean it's not powerful. I mean, yeah, I mean, we've had many cases. Gravity is unseen, in a sense. I mean when we had the pandemic.

Speaker 2: 38:30

Nobody can see COVID and wiped out almost, yeah, 2 million, 3 million people. Radiation is unseen and I don't know anyone taking vacations to Chernobyl. So I think across the board, we understand that just because it's unseen to you doesn't mean it's not real and it doesn't mean it can't impact you.

Speaker 1: 38:55

And just because that's you know, it's an important point to highlight because someone might say well, you know, we can see COVID when you look at it under a microscope and whatever, but it's like you said, you can't see it under the microscope.

Speaker 1: 39:08

You can't be in a room and say I see it right now, unseen to who, like you said, unseen to who and unseen by what machinery, if you will, and perhaps in the future, we really are in an era where technological development really has kind of exploded. I mean, I just heard about the AI therapists.

Speaker 2: 39:42

Oh no, we're not going there.

Speaker 1: 39:43

Well and. But.

Speaker 2: 39:45

I'm starting to boycott now.

Speaker 1: 39:47

Well, and then I believe it was in the University of Zurich, if I have it correctly, a study was done that found that ai it was showing symptoms of anxiety.

Speaker 1: 40:02

I don't know if you've seen that um so I think I read the headline yeah, so the the, the control was that the ai was fed the information from a vacuum cleaner manual and then the other AI was fed sort of the information as it is fed by the world and language changes. When you're depressed, your language changes. You might be expressing the same. We both might be looking at that plant and in fact I was was the brown leaf just looks like it's dying.

Speaker 2: 40:42

Ah, and I think I am too right.

Speaker 1: 40:44

And then, if you're in love that green, bright green, ah, look at it coming so beautiful, yeah, you know, and uh, and if you're a farmer, if you're a farmer, if you're a chemist, that needs potassium. That's why the colors are changing. I went I think we had gone on a hike with the Zen Center and one of the members commented on we had gone through a. I want to say it was at the rutgers gardens. You know that pine forest that's sort of a pine school. Really.

Speaker 2: 41:24

It's like mythical almost yes, when you're there, you feel like you're in the night to the round table forest in a fairy tale.

Speaker 1: 41:29

Yeah but it's planted right. So it's planted in these neat rows. It's kind of, you know, too sterile in a sense and um, but so I believe it was in there and there was one particular tree that was significantly stood out because it was crooked. All the other ones, pines generally, um, tend to grow straight and in particular, I mean, certain species are little rambunctious and they don't want to.

Speaker 1: 42:01

But there's a, there's a wisdom in the way that the tree, and especially what it called carnivorous, kind of her carnivores, you know they're branches kind of slope down and and they're perfectly straight to distribute the load when they're covered, because they have needles in the winter, so they, they hold the snow.

Speaker 1: 42:28

So there's a, there's a reasoning for its geometry and and that's why they're they're very straight, you know to to make sure that the displacement of the weight, and that's why they're very straight, you know, to make sure that the displacement of the weight of the snow. But this one particular, for whatever reason, maybe it was sickly or maybe whatever happened to it during its growth, not unlike a child, when something happens, there's oppression during its growth and then it corrects itself, but there's that bend that you know the s shape there, that stays with it. Um, and and after the the trip, people commented on you know the general experience of the, of the trip, etc. Etc. These things and one person commented on, like you said, commented, commented on that one uniquely deformed tree. It stood out so much to them that it was almost a fixation and they were plagued by episodes of severe depression, generally speaking, and this mirroring was there that they identified perhaps with that one single tree that all the other trees aren't and this one single tree and that kind of thing. But we digress.

Speaker 2: 43:54

They saw themselves in the tree. Yeah, it's almost like a world Rorschach test. It is, yeah, tree and and that kind of thing. But we digress. They saw themselves in the tree, yeah, yeah, it's almost like a world rorschach test.

Speaker 1: 43:59

It is, yeah, and and it is, you know, we, we believe and what we believe we impart onto the world. So this, this is a two-way street to some degree, but I would say more so it's a one-way street. I I think in the last meditation class I spoke about clouds and I had kind of it's uh time for angle, which is the meditation retreat season, and and the in between the angle I kind of come out from from, from my under the rock, from the cave, from the depths of the cave to kind of come out from under the rock, from the cave, from the depths of the cave, to see what's going on in the outside world, to see what's going on in the outside world, and I take in some of it to be able to communicate like a human being.

Speaker 1: 44:52

I try my best. And so I was talking about clouds and how I think almost everybody as a child they look at clouds and they're trying to make out shape. You know, we have that search for this anthropomorphic quality, so on. That looks like a face and it's got eyes, and it's a bunny, and it's a this and it's a that, and, and so we imagine various things. And I said, you know, and maybe that one's a cybertruck, and.

Speaker 1: 45:20

And so everybody laughed at that, because clouds are, generally speaking, roundish, they're not as angular as as it may be. And you know, I paused for a moment because it was a teachable moment. And it was a teachable moment in the sense that so much in my current out in the world. You know, the Cybertruck thing is coming up and up and up again and I could care less either way. You know I'm not judging anybody's choices, whatever you do to you, but it seeped into my psyche sufficiently enough that it was included in a.

Speaker 1: 46:06

You know, it was meant to be kind of funny, because clouds aren't shaped, you know in angular ways, but and so think about it. That is how our minds and and that which we diet on it really is projected onto the world, and someone said exactly that. What you said. It's like. This is like a big rorschach thing. Right, we look at, we look at reality, and and the truth of the matter is, what we're trying to do within zen is to actually look at reality. We don't look at reality, we look at the content of our to actually look at reality.

Speaker 1: 46:35

We don't look at reality. We look at the content of our mind. We look at the screen that the eyeball is and to which, like those new AI glasses where it's got print on the inside, of it right, this is how we see the world. So this invention quote unquote if you will of the AI glasses with the screen that your eyeball could see, but you're also seeing the reality, as is.

Speaker 2: 47:03

That's not new. It's not new. Humans have been distorting reality since the beginning, since we crawled out of the muck.

Speaker 1: 47:09

Yeah, it really is that it's the same principle. It's the same principle. We look at reality through our AI lenses and the AI has been fed the information that I have been fed throughout my life, and then I see not what is, but what I imagined to be. And if you believe sufficiently that that person is out to get you, they are out to get you. Oh yes, if you believe that world is in this way and that way, and so to maybe start circling back and kind of tying it all neatly, belief is a thing that is. It's a thing that we do, in what context we do it and where the topics of it or the interests of the belief we believe in.

Speaker 2: 48:04

What that varies, but in terms of its governing principle in our life, it's there and I I want to give a message also that it's something that you should actively be aware of and try to train it. You referred to Ogun, the five roots that every person has, and when I think of root, I think well, how do you make it sprout? Or how do you make a flower or fruit? You have to nurture that root, you have to nurture that root, you have to feed that root. And I believe that Zen is a. It is the training ground for people to learn to first identify what are the governing beliefs that are leading them into these pitfalls and these traps and these, this revolving door of misery and suffering. Because when you understand that it is your belief that can literally change your outlook on life, then you have to train your mind to shift or to see the positive, see the way through, find hope. And if you don't train that, then you're just going to again be that hamster on that wheel, continuously crashing up against that same problem or hardship and feeling like there's no way out. And there's a story that my grandmother taught me, told me, and I think it highlights this point, and the context is in an institution, a hospital institution, and there's this patient we'll just call him patient A for the case of example. That's been in his room for many years now and he looks out the window and he is discontent with the view. From his window, all he sees are smokestacks and gray skies. And then on the other side there's we'll say Mr Jones, this patient. He can hear him talking loudly and laughing and saying how wonderful it is. When he looks out his window, right, he sees the rolling hills and the beautiful blue sky and the birds chirping and the flowers blossoming. And so patient A also happens to hear one of the hospital employees say that oh, mr Jones is finally being discharged. And so he calls in the hospital employee and says excuse me, can I move into Mr Jones' room? And the hospital employee says yeah, sure you know you've been here a long time, you've been a good patient. And the hospital employee says yeah, sure you know you've been here a long time, you've been a good patient. Absolutely, we'd help you move into that room.

Speaker 2: 50:39

And so when the time comes, patient A moves into that room and he's so excited he can't wait to look out that window. And he raises up the shade and he looks and he sees oh, it's a brick wall. And he's like wait a minute. He calls in the hospital worker and says excuse me, excuse me, wait, I didn't want this room, I wanted Mr Jones' room, you know, the one with the beautiful rolling hills and the blue skies. Oh, that's what Mr Jones said. He saw. He goes yeah, yeah, that's what Mr Jones saw. This cannot be his room. And he goes, oh, you don't know. He says, oh, mr Nice, he didn't look with these meat eyes which cannot see past misery. He looked with the eyes of his heart which can cut through suffering and look at the root of happiness and joy and peace. People need to work on and train, because sometimes there's this rubber band effect where we just get pulled back into the cogent quantum, these habitual ways of seeing the world with limitations and, of course, negative things stand out.

Speaker 2: 51:48

Right, you turn on the news, like you were saying earlier, about cyber trucks. All the negativity is what stands out. Sometimes in our, in our world, those are the things that make the most noise. Yeah, but we have to learn to quiet that and then we can have the freedom to choose what we want to hone in on and what we want to focus yeah, so belief is a thing, yes, it.

Speaker 1: 52:09

It does its work, whether you like it or not. Yeah, and training it? How do you use any tool?

Speaker 1: 52:19

yeah so we don't become the tool. You know, if we, if it's unconsciously done in a way that it largely is, we are the tool, not the mercy of it, mm-hmm. And. And if we don't choose to train, if we don't choose to access that control panel, if you will, then we are there for the ride and we're definitely not behind the steering wheel. And so, absolutely Belief is a real thing. It's there for you if you know how to use it, for you, if you know how to use it. It's there in you and we just stumble and operate in ways whatever if we're not consciously have taken the time to see what actually the working of it is. So, until next time, take care of yourselves and each other. If you have questions or comments, please do let us know. If you'd like to support the podcast, to offset the cost of the platforms, etc. Etc. We appreciate that, of course. Also, thank you for listening. Until next time, take care of yourselves and each other. I'm Myung Han.

Speaker 2: 53:42

Sunim. Thank you, I'm Dr Ruben Lambert. From my heart to yours, I want to wish everyone some happiness in their life and some peace, and please subscribe and like. And if you heard something today that you feel that it tugged on the strings of your heart, if you heard something today that you feel that it tucked on the strings of your heart, that you learned something new that can better your life, please share it with others. Thank you very much.